Archaeoforum.de

Oops. I have one more question, SIMON... who is Thomas?


Kelvin

No problem.

the HLMD is the "Hessisches Landesmuseum Darmstadt".
There, actually, are shown the finds of Glauberg.
Have a look @ http://hlmd.de/w3.php?nodeId=505

In that grave there where found three pins.

The biggest one is this: http://hassiaceltica.de/reko/fibelgrab1.htm
There a two smaler "Birdhedpins" in it.

Here you can see the grave in situ:
http://keltenfuerst.de/index_1.htm

no. 14 is the fibula.

Why trouser: the celts worn bracae. At the statue were fragmenst of paintings found. maybe an trouser. A lot of finds show trousers in the lta (look @ dürrnberg or hallstatt)

Why longs sleeves? because it was terrible cold and wet that day!

And why not? we are celts no greecs or etruscians.

There are no pictures of "batwings". It is forbidden to make some and also impossible because of the very bad light in the exhibition.


If you have any more questions go on!

Greetz,

Simon

Kelvin,

I think its quite unclear what the Glaubberg Stele really represents. A God? A Warrior? We are fully aware that the stele don't shows trousers, also the small figure on the bronze can from the Glauberg does not wear them. Should we take this literally? All ( the few...) representations of LIVING male people of LTA does show trousers and long sleeves.

The stele and the figure on the can are following some form of iconography, the do not represent 'real life'. Please just consider, that none of both is wearing a helmet. Cuirass...and no helmet?

And why no cloak? A linen cuirass is somewhat sensitive to rain, and the wearer may be sensitive to low temperatures...

Hans

Okay. Thank you both very much.

I don't know if you are aware, but there was a cuirass found in perfect state in the grave of pharaoh Tutankhamun (14th century BC), it leather painted in horizontal lines of blue, red and blue, and tied with linen straps on the inside.
I say 'perfect state' but that was when it was photographed in its box by Howard Carter's team-- when lifted, it fell apart in clouds of dust...

In a way, it resembled this one worn by Ramses: http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... 3353_2.jpg albeit without the sleeves.


Kelvin

in the grave of pharaoh Tutankhamun (14th century BC),

...yes...but it is a 1000 years and a 1000 miles away.....

H.

Oh, I realise it is not the relevant period or region, but as we were 'talking cuirasses', i thought I'd just mention it.
It is a relatively unknown find because it did not survive the excavation, and what fragments were kept by the Egyptian Museum were then lost...

But Howard Carter drew it (and its painted colours) on a piece of paper archived, yet- to my best knowledge- never published.


Kelvin Wilson

Something more, why linen and not leather:

linen was more exclusive at that time.

All those things in the glauberg graves are "toys" indeed.
I saw the last friday. nothing is usable to fight or use.

So, I think, the cuirass was also just a showcase.

Simon

Sorry, but I must say I find it the strangest thing to hear stated that linen was an exclusive commodity in the 2500 year old economic communities of prehistory, virtually as distant to us as, let's say, the planet Mars is.

In 3500 year ago Egypt linen was a very common material, used for underwear to dishclothes... a class difference lay in its quality: the thread count of one of Tutankhamun's tunics was so fine that to this day the researchers are not sure whether the decorations are woven or painted! And I have seen with my own eyes in the Egyptian Museum's storeroom linen so finely structured, that it indeed becomes transparent.

Isn't it the thought that most items made of linen have simply not survived in Europe more warranted? Of course, the same would go for leather and I am thus unsure why that commodity should compare favourably to linen...


Kelvin Wilson

Kelvin, linen was in the middleeuropean region so expensive, because the place for flax fields was rare!

Only in a few regions was place enough to till and harvest flax. So it has to be bought from longrange-traders.

Okay, thanks-- that answer is good enough for me.

Maybe I am confused because where I live now, there used to be a large flax-growing industry. And although it made the elite of field owners quite well-to-do, the majority of people remained dirt-poor (yet growing and wearing linen).

Kelvin Wilson

It's like steve said.

Of course, there are some linen textiles.
If you have a look at the Dürrnberg in Austria, linen ist the major fibre. But thats an exeption.

In the northern areas, as like as the Glauberg, it's a textile for the nobles.
Wool is the major thing. Only in the later latènetime, linen is used more often.

Simon

A question for Steve: you started this thread by publishing that very interesting picture of the backside of a LT-A haircut, and I am about to close it by publishing on this forum, for the first time, the reconstruction I have painted

But first I want to get my facts right... so could you please tell me where you found the picture, and where the find comes from?

Meanwhile I will try to send you the picture privately, okay?

Vielen Dank!


Kelvin Wilson

Apologies, Steve, but I now see you had already answered the question where you got the picture from: 'a private CD-Rom'...

Is it possible, though, for you to find out for me where the compiler of that CD made the scan from? It is very important to me, as I cannot show my reconstruction not knowing what the provenance really is!
Maybe someone else on this forum knows more...


Thanks VERY MUCH


Kelvin Wilson

Wär für mich auch sehr interessant...hab' die Frisur nun in 1:1 vor mir....deshalb wär eine 'exakte' Quelle ganz gut...

H

Kelvin habe ich schon ge-e-mailt, deswegen hier auf Deutsch:

Ich muß mich diesbezüglich umtun, kann dauern. Soweit ich weiß war?s eines der kürzeren Lta-Schwerter aus Latène.

Ferro überlegt sich mal die Flechtmethode, dann hängen wir hier mal ein Bild von mir mit entsprechender Frisur rein... :rr: